The two biggest flaws in Harry Potter
Jan. 16th, 2005 02:49 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
laviviI love the Harry Potter series. I sincerely do. I perhaps wouldn't call them my favorite series, but I've certainly obsessed over them far more than I have over any other book or movie. I think J.K. Rowling is a fabulous, fabulous writer, one of the best of our day.
But despite this, I am forced to acknowledge flaws. Not the Flints - the real, plot flaws, which make me very sad. In my mind, there are really only two glaring ones.
- Lord Voldemort. It's so sad. But at this stage, I, and many others, have to admit he has no depth. Ms. Rowling grounded this when she said somewhere that he's never loved anyone. That was a mistake.
But the bigger issue is that his motivation for a pureblood world is cardboard. He's more of a halfblood than Harry is! I have difficulty, no matter how much else Voldemort has acomplished, seeing Lucius Malfoy truly respect him. But his evil plan to kill everyone because his Muggle father was a bad man is a cliche and just doesn't fit with the rest of Ms. Rowling's well-rounded world - Peter Pettigrew, as seen in the fifth book. Before the fifth book was published, I read a fanfic called There Is No Such Place by Liz Barr*. In short, it's a Marauder-era fic. And in it, Peter is an equal. He banters with the rest of the Marauders, they don't mock him. Yes, he has problems with schoolwork, that's canon, but he's part of the Marauders. You may argue that McGonagall, who knew them for seven years, called him a "tag-along" - but isn't Colin Creevey Harry's tag-along, and if Harry, Ron, and Hermione made something, would they put Colin's name on it?
But canon is canon, and what we saw in the Pensieve is how things were - with Peter's applause and Sirius' derision. I accept it - but I have trouble believing that they would really trust him with James and Lily's life. Unless he went under the miraculous personality change James allegedly suffered, too.
But what do you think? Am I crazy, did I miss even bigger ones?
* No Such Place is an abandoned WIP, so investigate at your own emotional risk. ;-)
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(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-16 01:16 pm (UTC)And I seriously, seriously agree with you about Peter. She made a huge mistake in book five. And about Lord Voldemort.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-16 05:58 pm (UTC)Well, concerning actual writing vs. imagination/creativity and the like, I have this to say: When you consider that, Tolkien certainly isn't one of the best writers, is he? His style is plain and simple; nothing especially eloquent or dazzling. But I maintain his mind equals the great scientists we hear about, like Newton.
And I do like her writing style. She's funny. Take the fifth book, when Harry's having dreams about the Corridor of Doom, and it says he pushed it to the back of his mind, then: "Unfortunately, the back of his mind was no longer the safe place it once was." (followed by, "Get up, Potter. ... What was that place?" and "You are not trying nearly hard enough!" Haha, I do love being able to quote lines without even trying.)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 08:22 am (UTC)That said, I don't like reading Tolkien. To me, it reads: and then they took 15 paces. And sat. And ate some bread which was very good.
I don't think JKR is a particularly gifted author in the construction sense (though most "real" authors don't write a series that spans a decade of their real life), but I agree that she's exceptional at the development of an alternative world and tremendously intuitive imagination.
I believe she's "clued in" to the human psyche, and that's why she's so resonant (and relatively poor at writing the bad guys).
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 10:59 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-22 08:57 pm (UTC)I have two top shelves. On the right side are the exquisitely written books, the masterpieces of writing as a craft and an art form. They're the ones that, when I feel like rereading, I never start from the beginning, but just wander around the text and enjoy the writing for itself, screw plot.
The left side is where my multiple copies of the HP books sit, and certainly where Tolkein belongs. The books that maybe aren't great works of art, where the writing is a little clunky at times and nothing particularly special. But damn, they are great stories.
And I think it's precisely why JK's universe is such rich fodder for fanfiction, as is the LotR-verse. We get to do the good writing, the character study and the artsy poetry, because they haven't. If you ask me, it's a pretty good deal. :D
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-21 10:02 am (UTC)I never did until I heard it spoken on the audio book. I just don't see "auld" and hear it as "old".
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-16 01:46 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-16 08:52 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 08:57 pm (UTC)I do love her puny names like Knockturn Alley and Sirius Black, Umbridge and Fudge.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 05:53 pm (UTC)I just hope that these sorts of things become clearer once the entire series has been published. =)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 07:01 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 05:54 pm (UTC)1. I think Voldemort's flaw is that he's tried so many stupid ways of getting to Harry that is laughable now. I mean, what is he going to come up with next? (something stupider of course because we have yet another book to read)
2. I don't think we know enough from the books about the Marauders to say what they would or wouldn't do. (I'm one of those people who'd love Rowling forever and give her money to write something about the Marauders, but I know she won't, so)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 05:57 pm (UTC)But I will say this; HP is written from Harry's perspective and there is only so much that you can say about another character when writing through one. I know this sounds like a total cop-out but if you look at LOTR or even Star Wars the story is told from different perspectives or the omni perspective. So maybe there is a lot more we don't know because Harry doesn't know. I mean there could be so much more to Voldemort that Harry will learn about in future books.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 06:56 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 06:03 pm (UTC)...maybe I'm way off-base.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 06:11 pm (UTC)But the bigger issue is that his motivation for a pureblood world is cardboard. He's more of a halfblood than Harry is! I have difficulty, no matter how much else Voldemort has acomplished, seeing Lucius Malfoy truly respect him.
I definitely agree that Voldemort could use more depth. However, I don't have any problems with his pureblood mania, or his being accepted by Malfoy and other purebloods. Adolph Hitler wasn't a full-blooded German - yet he still inspired thousands to kill for his ideals. It's very easy to wonder after reading Mein Kampf how Hitler managed to gain so much powerful support. These things happen in real life, ugly as it is...
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 06:45 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 07:21 pm (UTC)Which makes me begin to think that maybe Voldemort is better left undeveloped, after all. Maybe the point of the whole thing isn't Harry vs. Voldemort the Character, but Harry vs. Voldemort the Symbol. As a person, Voldemort definitely falls flat, but the more I think about it, symbolically there's a great deal to him.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 10:43 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 06:34 pm (UTC)I have often said that were I senior Death Eater after the ridiculously convoluted plan with the Triwizard Tournament, I totally would have staged a coup. Bad guys with no depth annoy me, this must be why I write fan-fiction :)
Besides, Voldie is descending to Cobra-Commander-esque plans as the books progress (if you'll forgive the 80's cartoon villian reference). If I were Lucius Malfoy, I think the first person I'd be taking down when I got out of Azkaban was The Big V himself for putting me in that *stupid* situation, with a bunch of incompetent Death Eaters for help. Why not let Malfoy do some underhanded sneaky work, where his talents lie, and save the bombastic plans for some of his less...er, bright....followers?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 08:32 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 08:37 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 06:36 pm (UTC)I have a problem with JRK's bad guys. They all come out as flat and unmotivated. That could, of course, be an effect of the Harry!filter, but from what I've read, I kinda doubt it.
But you're spot on about Voldemort. He has (or, depending on how you look at it, doesn't have any issues) the biggest issues of all of them [teh evil].
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 06:37 pm (UTC)Same with Pettigrew, actually. I recently got really into writing Peter fics, because he's so puzzling! I can't figure out anything about him, his motivations, and the contrasts in his character (some of which you pointed out, though I'm also curious as to why such a coward would be in Gryffindor, and what role owing his life to Harry will play). And since there's so much mystery around him, I'm sure that there'll be more revealed- hopefully that will make his actions seem like lessof a flaw.
And I do think you missed one, though maybe it's not something foremost in your mind. JKR seems to think all Slytherins are evil- even on her website, she was talking about thinking it strange that any fan would want to be a Slytherin- and that seems to show a lack of depth like Voldemort's character, too. No 11-year-old, even an ambitious one, is evil- so I don't get why she seems to hate them so much. That's a major flaw in my opinion- she argues against stereotypes in her subtext- them creates her own biases and doesn't seem to be willing to reconsider them!
Anyway, lovely discussion!
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 06:59 pm (UTC)ah.. I hate to be the person giving "no!" responses, but...
There are some evil 11-year olds. Mostly they are (clinically defined) psychopaths. They're not common, but they do exist.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 07:53 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 08:41 am (UTC)(1) Buying votes in 5th grade with candy (the teachers had given up controlling this and the parents bought it).
(2) Fistfight over a girl (all the boys agreed that she was the ONE girl who was a "hottie" in the year. She wasn't particularly physically mature btw; it's a mystery to me - I can only assume an alpha-male type liked her and the others glommed onto the idea).
(3) My own child! "I know how to make money! I'll lend some money to a friend when they've forgotten theirs for lunch, and then I'll make them pay me back double every day until they remember." He sold a single oreo for 75 cents one day. To his friend.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 11:01 am (UTC)(Your kid sounds funny!)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 11:21 am (UTC)I personally think ambition and political savvy is a good thing, even in kids.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 04:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 08:10 pm (UTC)The "Slytherin = evil" thing annoys me, too. Not only is it a huge stereotype, it's illogical. If all Slytherins are going to turn out bad, then why does Dumbledore bother to teach them? Why not kick them out as soon as they're sorted into Slytherin? It makes no sense.
*cough* *is Slytherin and proud* *cough*
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 08:46 pm (UTC)I consider myself mostly Ravenclaw, with some Slytherin traits.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 09:24 pm (UTC)Oooh... I've always thought it was terribly unfair of Dumbledore to do that, you know. Very interesting fic! I liked it. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 09:39 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 07:22 am (UTC)It's actually quite funny that you mentioned that. I've written three or four fanfics, but my best one is something called Someone to Look Up To - on fanfiction.net, which is down right now. (My username there is Lavinia Lavender.) But as soon as it's working again, I'll comment again here with a link. Just a one-shot. Check it out then and review, won't you?
But I don't think that's as much of a flaw, because we haven't seen that all Slytherins are evil - only that many are prejudiced against them. Such as Dumbledore.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 11:23 am (UTC)we haven't seen that all Slytherins are evil
Well, not in the books so much, I just see it as a gap in JKR's overall world, encompassing the website and such as well- and she seems to hate Slytherins personally.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 04:18 pm (UTC)What it comes to is how she personally sees the end-of-year feast in first year, and what Dumbledore did.
from the <lj user_="daily_snitch">
Date: 2005-01-18 06:43 pm (UTC)And we do see that scene from Snape's memories--and how much of an outsider to them was Snape?
Also: as someone pointed out, Harry's not the most observant of boys, and we do see things from his perspective. Through teenaged eyes, which means he's still figuring out the world in the first place. He's not the most reliable eyes. I mean, how much more would we know about everything if we saw things through Hermione's eyes?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 07:34 pm (UTC)I thought that Peter stood a chance of at least being a well-rounded part of the evil side of things, especially as there are hints that he will do something to redeem himself before the end, but even if he does that it will not erase the atrocious images in my head of Sycophant!Peter from OotP. I know that fics are not the canon, but I've seen a number of fics that depict him brilliantly, believably and cleverly without reducing him to a caricature. (Especially
And while I appreciate her impulse to give James feet of clay, I think he turned into a caricature as well. The Lily/James love/hate cliche is also rather disappointing; they didn't need to be in love from the moment they met, but they could at least have been platonic friends. I could have done without the shrill confrontations we saw in OotP.
I think that the issues you've raised come down to her characterization. She's painting on a canvas of Dickensian proportions and weaving a tale with far-reaching ramifications for the characters in the world she's created, yet I don't think she has quite the ability needed to adequately develop characters who are very important to the overall plot but who are NOT the hero and NOT on the hero's side. She seems to be deathly afraid of making a villain sympathetic. Now, one can't expect every "walk-on" role to be well-rounded (although I've seen some authors who can do this in their sleep), but it would be nice if some rather important roles weren't executed in such an utterly ham-handed fashion. We can have someone's motivations explained without feeling that their motivations are righteous/justified. There's a huge difference between explaining and excusing.
Plus she SO needs someone do to her mathematical calculations for her. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 08:47 am (UTC)Actually, as an aside, there's something called an attachment disorder.
Math: agreed. I think she's had not-great editorial help, though who knows what the manuscripts began as.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 10:36 am (UTC)-I'm going to have to reread this part to make sure this is even possible, but I had always read the line about Voldemort having never loved anyone, as saying that Voldemort had never loved anyone, whereas Tom had. There's a "choices" theme going on in the books, so Tom's choice to undergo transformations and become Voldemort made him forget how to love or understand love, in a manner similar to Smeagol's descent into Gollum. Of course, it's quite possible that I'm giving JKR more credit than she deserves here. I've never thought she was the epitome of writing genius like some people I know continue to do, and I've never quibbled with the fact that there are several definite flaws in her writing where logic and characterization are concerned.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 11:53 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-19 08:14 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-18 08:41 pm (UTC)My initial reaction to Peter in OotP was very similar to yours. I was one of the fans of MoreThanHeSeems!Peter. But as I thought about it more ... I was missing the point of that scene. One of the main reasons for the Better!Wormtail theory (as I understood it) was that James and Sirius were too good to have an nasty useless minion for a friend, and therefore Peter had to have some redeeming qualities.
But as we learned in that scene, James and Sirius weren't all that great. They had prejudices and they weren't always fair and just and right, and they wouldn't be averse to befriending a flattering hanger-on who thought they could do no wrong. The difference between Peter and Colin is that Peter is encouraged and liked for being a "tag-along," and Colin isn't. Peter gets closer than Colin ever does, and the point is that unlike the Golden Trio, the Marauders don't have a storybook friendship. If they did, Peter never would have betrayed them, Remus and Sirius wouldn't have suspected each other of being Death Eaters, and a lot of other things would be different.
This is my way of taking things on the author's terms, I guess. Nothing ruins a story faster than bringing a lot of baggage to it about what it "should" be; this is, IMO, one of the biggest dangers of reading a lot of fanfic of an incomplete series.
That said, here are a couple of good recs including Valid!Peter you might enjoy: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1097925/1/ and http://www.fanfiction.net/s/437455/1/